GUILD CENSUS SESSION (let the complaints commence)

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GUILD CENSUS SESSION (let the complaints commence)

Post  Elude on Wed May 30, 2012 1:45 pm

Hey guys it's that one guy that pays for the second ventrilo we hardly use (lol). I started this thread to address some issues i've seen in the guild. This post is not intended to hurt anyones feelings or step on any toes. I'm not just trolling and would appreciate those that choose to respond to show the same respect.
The reason for this post is to try to understand what most of our guildies expect from Moment of Silence, and what you don't like about it since you have joined. What do you guys like to do? Pvp? Run flashpoints? Run Operations? Do you just like having someone to talk to occasionally while you level?
I want to propose that in this thread we "get it all out". Lets try not to name drop and keep the "i hate yang because of this..." and "Elude has the bladder of three year old" comments to a minimum. I don't want to start a fight within the guild, but i do want to know what really bugs you about the leadership, scheduling, and participation (or lack thereof). I'll start it off and check back with what we find out as this thread grows.

I (believe it or not) like to run Flashpoints, Operations, and pvp. However, i only like to do these things with a team of people that help each other out and share a common goal.
I want guild leaders to be leaders of the guild. I would like to see someone that can be unbiased and fair to organize Operations make-up and distribute drops from bosses in a fair way. These leaders would also have to track participation in the guild and take that into account also.
If you are running flashpoints and helping gear others consistently or contributing in some other way to the guild you can earn a spot on the Operations team.
Also you have to be actively trying to gear yourself. This means running them flashpoints and getting that one drop off the last boss in whichever flashpoint drops the item you need (if you don't know which you need, ask someone). You can run flashpoints as many times as you need to get full columi throughout the week. Yes it's nice to run one Operation once a week and probably get geared from being carried. But you should also be working on your own gear yourself and not relying on others to hand you the gear you do not deserve.
We need guild officers to organize different things, and be in charge of certain aspects of the guild. Examples: Pvp Officer, Operations Officer, Flashpoint Officer, Loot Officer (or loot council made of all officers), Guild events officer (datacron, world boss, guild fund raiser), Recruitment Officer... This way the guildmaster's job is solely to hire and fire officers and balance their jobs by taking on their responsibility when they can't log on.
I got ventrilo because i got used to just using it to communicate with people instead of typing out what i need to say (so i'm not just ignoring you if you're trying to tell me something in game, i'm just not paying attention to my chat log). I have different channels for different things and i can make more if you guys want (whisper me or in game mail me to make requests). Please feel free to use it for whatever moves you. Grp up with each other and hop in it to level together, run flashpoints, pvp, and even run ops. No ones feelings will be hurt if you wanna move to a different channel because the one you're in gets too loud. A few of us that do use it often have to take our time and wait our turn to talk but its a nice tool to use even if you're just bored. Alera and i are always yelling at each other in pvp about how fail our team is.
Please by all means comment, suggest, or just complain away guys i know there's a lot we'd like to see happen with our guild. No one knows there are problems unless someone says something out loud.


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Re: GUILD CENSUS SESSION (let the complaints commence)

Post  Rish on Wed May 30, 2012 3:58 pm

I took a break from swtor for about 10 days and am sorry was not there for the guildies. I agree with Elude when he says people should work towards their gear by doing fps etc and not directly come to Ops. And a spot in ops run should be earned not just given. Also, it would be great if we could plan our runs and have sign up sheets so we can predict better. But this also requires guildmates to check forums and let the operation organizer know about their availability etc. If you cannot make it for those runs at those times please post and say something. And if you can then sign up Smile. Thanks all !

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Re: GUILD CENSUS SESSION (let the complaints commence)

Post  Zun on Wed May 30, 2012 8:49 pm

The problem that im seeing is
1/ Yang is doing absolutely everything. (he'll burn out eventually so we need to take some pressure off his back and carry it ourselves)
2/ The leadership he has with him never log on (except 1 0r 2) and when they do they just expect the people putting in the hard yards to step aside.
3/ People need to start at fp's so they can learn to play there class. (what i mean by that is gear doesnt make a good tank, dps or healer. doing fps lets u try different things, learn when to taunt or use ur cds, learn when to throw what heals when. It also lets u get used to other players from the guild, what there habbits are so on and so forth) Doing operations and getting carried through is the easy way but getting ur hands dirty and learning is much more rewarding not only for yourself but also lets the guildies know that u are keen and dont just want the easy way out.
4/ If raid time is at 7 everyone needs to be ready by 6.45 with stims, medipacks and there armour repaired. So we can be inside and hit the first mob at 7.
5/ No going afk for trash. We are a team and every member needs to kill all stuff just not come back when its time for another boss.
6/ If u cant make a run let leadership know. If i cant make a day ill let yang or acid know 2-3 days in advance.
7/ If u are on another game for what ever reason make sure your on vent so we can contact you to help with a op if needed.

theres probably some other stuff that i havent posted here but this will do for a start.

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Re: GUILD CENSUS SESSION (let the complaints commence)

Post  Saelia on Thu May 31, 2012 2:57 am

Nice post! I'll share my thoughts...

The reason for this post is to try to understand what most of our guildies expect from Moment of Silence, and what you don't like about it since you have joined. What do you guys like to do? Pvp? Run flashpoints? Run Operations? Do you just like having someone to talk to occasionally while you level?
I love running all of the above, especially ops. The tendency I had (before my new job) was raiding in the evenings with the different op groups and PvP/HM FP's during downtime.
I want guild leaders to be leaders of the guild. I would like to see someone that can be unbiased and fair to organize Operations make-up and distribute drops from bosses in a fair way. These leaders would also have to track participation in the guild and take that into account also.
If you are running flashpoints and helping gear others consistently or contributing in some other way to the guild you can earn a spot on the Operations team.
Absolutely, guild leaders and officers should be leading the guild. The rest of it contains a small problem. Let's talk about loot first. The reason loot is /random 1 100 at the moment is to "try" and be fair. It introduces a "random" or "luck of the draw" element purpose to avoid being biased. It isn't an officers fault if someone happens to roll a 5. When you talk about the officer(s) distributing loot, you are introducing a whole new element to the table and that is human error/judgement etc. How do you judge one party vs. another or several parties? Do you base whether or not someone deserves a piece on attendance? Skill? The size of upgrade? How nice they are? How much they contribute to the guild bank? All of these factors or some not even mentioned yet? Furthermore, even if you deem a candidate, its likely someone will have their feelings hurt that they were passed over. We've all experienced it I'm sure. The /random element is there to try and minimize the feelings being hurt and is there in an attempt to be fair. It's not perfect but what is?
EDIT: (I did fail to mention the important part with our system now, which Yang mentioned later. You roll, you win, you're out until everyone else in your class gets a piece.)

Tracking attendance to determine whether or not you have an operations slot is another beast in and of itself. I don't think anyone is literally avoiding logging on to "refuse" to participate. Some people only have time in the early afternoons or late in the evenings to play, and if these people were consistently helping others when they are on, would they get a spot over someone who happens to be on every night at 7 PM if they were around when a raid was starting? That's what the sign-up sheets were originally for, to try and slay this particular beast as well.

Also you have to be actively trying to gear yourself. This means running them flashpoints and getting that one drop off the last boss in whichever flashpoint drops the item you need (if you don't know which you need, ask someone). You can run flashpoints as many times as you need to get full columi throughout the week. Yes it's nice to run one Operation once a week and probably get geared from being carried. But you should also be working on your own gear yourself and not relying on others to hand you the gear you do not deserve.
Another excellent point. Anomander, Yang and myself and others worked super hard on flashpoints. I got most of my Columi from FP's rather than EV/KP. A common problem I've been hearing is that noone is on/willing to help with FP's. A viable problem but one that can be fixed possibly by finding a PUG. I hate to find PUG's but sometimes it was neccessary =(.

I got ventrilo because i got used to just using it to communicate with people instead of typing out what i need to say (so i'm not just ignoring you if you're trying to tell me something in game, i'm just not paying attention to my chat log). I have different channels for different things and i can make more if you guys want (whisper me or in game mail me to make requests). Please feel free to use it for whatever moves you. Grp up with each other and hop in it to level together, run flashpoints, pvp, and even run ops.
Awesome. I hate using Joker's ventrilo.

Also, it would be great if we could plan our runs and have sign up sheets so we can predict better. But this also requires guildmates to check forums and let the operation organizer know about their availability etc. If you cannot make it for those runs at those times please post and say something. And if you can then sign up.
Bold - Underline

Yang is doing absolutely everything. (he'll burn out eventually so we need to take some pressure off his back and carry it ourselves)
Absolutely agree. Not to do any ball-busting but Yang does purposely take a lot on himself. It reminds me of his gaming style of 100% completion =)

The leadership he has with him never log on (except 1 0r 2) and when they do they just expect the people putting in the hard yards to step aside.
Real life is wild and unpredictable. I've explained my personal situation and I'll log on when I can't but it won't be often. If the general consensus believes I need to step down because of this, I will gladly do so. I've never once ever "expected" for anyone to step aside when I log on and to my knowledge, I don't think any of the officers have felt that way. I do get the term "hard yards" and how you intend to be using it, but it's very broad and can be used to describe a number of people.

People need to start at fp's so they can learn to play there class. (what i mean by that is gear doesnt make a good tank, dps or healer. doing fps lets u try different things, learn when to taunt or use ur cds, learn when to throw what heals when. It also lets u get used to other players from the guild, what there habbits are so on and so forth) Doing operations and getting carried through is the easy way but getting ur hands dirty and learning is much more rewarding not only for yourself but also lets the guildies know that u are keen and dont just want the easy way out.
I couldn't agree more.

If raid time is at 7 everyone needs to be ready by 6.45 with stims, medipacks and there armour repaired. So we can be inside and hit the first mob at 7.
HUGE pet peeve of mine. There's is no reason if everyone is online for the entire group to wait on people to finish warzones, bake cakes, buy stims etc. If the raid starts at 7, we should be pulling at 7.

No going afk for trash. We are a team and every member needs to kill all stuff just not come back when its time for another boss.
Could be jumping the gun but I feel this is directed at me. I joke about it all the time but I'm generally not gone for more than 4 or 5 minutes. I'll go afk to splash water in my face/smoke etc. During bosses, all I do is stare at 8 huge lifebars and try to see out of my peripherals what the hell is happening around those if I'm dodging AE's and the like. During this time, I do not blink. Not blinking causes my eyes to burn and tear up and its not uncommon for me to be streaming tears after a particularly intense healing round. I didn't think this was a big enough problem to be mentioned.
EDIT: (Just about the only time I go afk is after a boss fight, while loot is being distributed as to not disturb anyone else...)

If u cant make a run let leadership know. If i cant make a day ill let yang or acid know 2-3 days in advance.
And...
If u are on another game for what ever reason make sure your on vent so we can contact you to help with a op if needed.
Absolutely let someone know. I've even given my phone number to Yang before I went to a bar so he could text me when we were about to do an op. Not saying you have to but I was showing that I was available and that he could count on my attendance.

In closing, a lot of what was mentioned is reminiscent of hardcore raiding guild requirements. While progression is absolutely a priority, this guild was created as a casual guild and from what I've been reminded of frequently, will always will be a casual guild. While I personally (in the past) would love things like DKP points, mandatory attendance requirements, loot auctions, etc. It will not happen for this guild. I don't seen another option for loot besides the system we have in place. Attendance tracking is just something this guild wouldn't benefit from. It's tough to populate an 8-man raid without leaving people out or stepping on toes, and maybe a way to combat this is to be mindful of who needs what and possibly step out/in to help out someone else. Maybe...
I don't know if that would even work lol. Maybe we should start running more 16 mans in the future if we have enough parties interesting in doing so. I know we've talked about two different 8 man op groups...

I apologize, I'm long winded


Last edited by Saelia on Thu May 31, 2012 4:16 am; edited 5 times in total

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Re: GUILD CENSUS SESSION (let the complaints commence)

Post  Zun on Thu May 31, 2012 3:06 am

If u cant make a run let leadership know. If i cant make a day ill let yang or acid know 2-3 days in advance.



And...


thats to show that i do it its easy to do so the leaders can make some sort of plans and know who isnt available.


No going afk for trash. We are a team and every member needs to kill all stuff just not come back when its time for another boss.



Could be jumping the gun but I feel this is directed at me. I joke about it all the time but I'm generally not gone for more than 4 or 5 minutes. I'll go afk to splash water in my face/smoke etc. During bosses, all I do is stare at 8 huge lifebars and try to see out of my peripherals what the hell is happening around those if I'm dodging AE's and the like. During this time, I do not blink. Not blinking causes my eyes to burn and tear up and its not uncommon for me to be streaming tears after a particularly intense healing round. I didn't think this was a big enough problem to be mentioned.

Ok so at certain points in a operation everyone takes a break, not just random afks all the time things wouldnt take as long, gotta wait for someone to have a smoke break, then 1 pull ok gotta now wait for someone else to wash there eyes, then 1 pull ok gotta wait now for someone else to have a smoke break. For me thats a big time wasting factor that needs to be addressed. People should repair at the same time as everyone too, so if we all start at 100% and someone dies more than the others. Instead of that person going to repair then next pull someone else goes repair so on and so forth why dont we just say ok so i gotta repair and everyone go do it at the same time that saves time too.




The thing about mmos is there are so many different style of players that we have to accommodate that if u at least put in some structure by cutting out the randomness then it makes it enjoyable for most players. I will say though there is no pleasing some people no matter how hard we try.

Im not saying that we need to go hardcore. I am a hardcore gamer trapped in a casual situation myself what im saying is that we need people that take us in the right direction as a guild and if people are already feeling this way then something needs to be done.

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Re: GUILD CENSUS SESSION (let the complaints commence)

Post  SilentLeader on Thu May 31, 2012 3:36 am

Hey, I'm typing on my cellphone so I can point out one misconception in his thread, everything else I can discuss more when I'm infront of the computer. The big misconception right now is that the loot is always assigned from rolls. That's not true, we use rolls only to determine who gets the first piece of main gear (column for nm and rakata for hm) after that, the person who didn't win the first piece get dibs on the next piece of main gear he needs. An complaint I received about this system is that some people want me to take in account of the other lower tiered gear that are also being distributed. Now that becomes a huge hassle to manage because of introduction of new factors on the table. In the end you guys should get it outof your head that we're distributing loots unfairly. If that's the case there will be guys that are much more geared than others. And I'm sure you notice that's not the case. (except for the guys that show up for ops more frequently). Finally, I hope we can remind ourselves that this is only a game, let's not get too worked up about things that are suppose to keep us entertainment. While doing that, I promise you that I'll keep everything as fair as. possible

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Re: GUILD CENSUS SESSION (let the complaints commence)

Post  Saelia on Thu May 31, 2012 3:41 am

Naturally, the best time to AFK for a few minutes would be after a boss died while time is spent distributing loot =)

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Re: GUILD CENSUS SESSION (let the complaints commence)

Post  SilentLeader on Thu May 31, 2012 3:47 am

You guys share very similar ideas so I don't even know what you're replying about. We all agree that a going afk should be done as a group. On rare occasions when someone needs to go afk by themselves I'm sure they have a good reason to make 7 guys wait for them

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Re: GUILD CENSUS SESSION (let the complaints commence)

Post  Elude on Thu May 31, 2012 1:05 pm

Zun wrote: Ok so at certain points in a operation everyone takes a break, not just random afks all the time things wouldnt take as long, gotta wait for someone to have a smoke break, then 1 pull ok gotta now wait for someone else to wash there eyes, then 1 pull ok gotta wait now for someone else to have a smoke break. For me thats a big time wasting factor that needs to be addressed.

I was in a guild with a bunch of non-smokers before. They did a 5-10min break every hour to help with this. I would also sneak a smoke in while they were distributing loot. Luckily i got an iphone app that lets me hear everyone in vent while i afk so i can hear when they gonna start again lol. And the only time i remember anyone killing trash while people were afk was when someone would say "Let's just clear trash till they get back." So in reality those guys coulda just waited for the afk'rs. Just my two cents.
Also about the loot, not really any concern of mine when i've ran with you guys before. I just want to make sure only people committed are getting the gear in case you guys ever wanna kill the last boss (whoever he is) in that last raid (Explosive Conflict?). Wish i knew more bout these raids sometimes.
Though we are a social guild first it seems, i just want to make sure we have common goals no matter our interests. Otherwise, all we are is a glorified Custom channel 18-20 people use every once in a while (18-20 is my guess as to how many actual accounts or players we have in our 192ish man guild... trim the fat!)

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